Showing posts with label 1975 world series. Show all posts
Showing posts with label 1975 world series. Show all posts

Friday, October 21, 2022

October 21, 1975, The Carlton Fisk Game

October 21, 1975: In The Curse of the Bambino, his somewhat skewed history of his beloved Boston Red Sox, Boston Globe columnist Dan Shaughnessy called it "a brilliant autumn day in New England," following a 3-day delay for rain. Brilliant though the Tuesday afternoon may have been, Game 6 of the 1975 World Series is played at night at Fenway Park.

The Red Sox, Champions of the American League after winning its Eastern Division and beating the 3-time defending World Champions, the Oakland Athletics, in the AL Championship Series, trail the Cincinnati Reds, a.k.a. the Big Red Machine, Champions of the National League after winning its Western Division and beating the Pittsburgh Pirates in the NLCS, 3 games to 2, and must win to force a Game 7.

The Sox haven't won the World Series in 57 years, including a loss as recently as 1967. The Reds haven't won the World Series in 35 years, including 2 Series losses in this decade already. Boston is looking for its 1st title since 1918; Cincinnati, for its 1st since 1940. Both teams need it badly. Something's gotta give.

Just 14 years later, Shaughnessy wrote, "Game Six has taken on a life of its own in the years since it was played, and it gets larger and more thrilling in each retelling. Some distance allows that there may be other contenders for the title of The Greatest Game Ever Played, but by any measure, 1975's Game Six will stand as one of the top ten games in World Series history, and one that came at a time when baseball needed it most." Shaughnessy was right.

In The New Yorker magazine, Roger Angell wrote, "Game Six... what can we say of it without seeming to diminish it by recapitulation or dull it with detail?" Roger, one of the greatest writers ever on the subject of baseball, was wrong on this one: The details are necessary.

Due to the rain, Sox manager Darrell Johnson was able to start Luis Tiant, winner of Games 1 and 4, on full rest. Reds manager Sparky Anderson started Gary Nolan. Fred Lynn, who, that season, became the 1st player ever to be awarded his league's Rookie of the Year and its Most Valuable Player award in the same season, hit a home run that gave the Sox a 3-0 lead in the 1st inning, and Tiant pitched shutout ball through 4.

But, as they would say in English soccer, Three-nil, and they fucked it up. The Reds got 2 men on in the 5th, and Ken Griffey Sr. sent Lynn to the wall. Lynn crashed, telling NBC's Bob Costas years later that he'd hurt his ribs, and that, for a moment, he was barely conscious and couldn't feel his legs. Griffey's triple scored 2 runs, and then Johnny Bench singled Griffey home to tie the game. A 2-run double by George Foster in the 7th and a solo homer by Cesar Geronimo in the 8th gave the Reds a 6-3 lead, with just 6 outs to go for the title.

Typical Boston choke, leading to a Reds win? As ESPN college football analyst Lee Corso would say, "Not so fast, my friend!" Six-three, and they fucked it up. In the bottom of the 8th, Reds reliever Pedro Borbon (who, like Griffey, would later see his son and namesake play in the major leagues) gave up a single to Lynn and a walk to Rico Petrocelli.

Sparky brought in Rawley Eastwick, who struck out Dwight Evans and got Rick Burleson to line out to left. He got 2 strikes on Bernie Carbo, a former Red, pinch-hitting for pitcher Roger Moret (who had relieved Tiant in the 8th), but Carbo drove one to dead center, and tied it up.

In the bottom of the 9th, Denny Doyle drew a leadoff walk. Carl Yastrzemski singled him over to 3rd. Sparky brought in reliever Will McEnaney, and had him intentionally walk Carlton Fisk. Did Sparky have a premonition? If so, it didn't help him later on.

Lynn flew to left, and Foster threw home. Doyle tagged up and broke for home, because he thought Sox 3rd-base coach Don Zimmer was telling him, "Go, go, go!" In fact, Zim was saying, "No, no, no!" Doyle was out at the plate. Had he scored, winning it for the Sox right there, this would still have been a superb game, but not the legendary game that it became -- except within New England. Outside those 6 States, few baseball fans would have ranked it as an all-time great game. Instead, it went to extra innings.

Dave Concepcion singled and stole 2nd with 1 out in the top of the 10th, but Sox reliever Dick Drago stranded him. Pat Darcy sent the Sox down 1-2-3 in the bottom of the 10th.

Pete Rose led off the top of the 11th, and turned to Sox catcher Fisk, and said, "Can you believe this game?" (Some sources have Rose's comment as, "Some kind of a game, isn't it?") Fisk may not have taken kindly to that, because Drago -- who would bean Thurman Munson in a Yanks-Sox game at Fenway 3 years later -- hit Rose with a pitch.

Griffey bunted, and, unlike the Ed Armbrister play in Game 3, did not even appear to interfere with Fisk, who threw Rose out at 2nd. With Griffey on 1st and 1 out, Joe Morgan, who would be named the NL's MVP that season and the next, drove the ball to right field, and at Fenway the right-field fence was, and remains, only 3 feet high. Evans reached over the fence to make a great catch, and then started a double play, throwing to Yaz, who threw to Burleson who had run over to cover 1st, to eliminate Griffey and end the Reds' rally.

The Sox went down 1-2-3 in the bottom of the 11th. In the top of the 12th, Tony Perez and Foster singled off Rick Wise, but Wise stranded them.

At 12:34 AM on October 22, 1975, Fisk led off the bottom of the 12th against Darcy, and hit a 1-0 pitch down the left-field line. It had enough distance. But would it be fair? Or would it be foul? Fisk, as though it would actually influence the flight of the ball, waved his arms to his right. The ball hit the pole near its top, for a home run. Final score, Boston 7, Cincinnati 6. The Series was tied, and would go to a Game 7.

John Kiley, the organist at Fenway Park (and also at the Boston Garden, thus the answer to the corny old trivia question about "the only man to play for the Red Sox, Celtics and Bruins"), played George Friedrich Handel's "Hallelujah Chorus." Then he played "Stout-Hearted Men." Then he played "The Beer Barrel Polka." ("Roll out the barrel, we'll have a barrel of fun.") Then he played "Seventy-six Trombones" from the Broadway musical The Music Man. (I have no idea why he played that one.)

The shot of Fisk thinking he can wave the ball fair, which I've dubbed the Fenway Twist, is the most familiar clip in the history of televised sports. (As they had with every World Series since 1947, NBC was televising it, although they would begin to alternate with ABC starting with the 1977 season, until 1989.)

From seeing this clip so much, and hearing so much talk about Game 6 of '75 from Red Sox fans, a reasonable person might have asked (through 2004 anyway), "Wait a minute. The Red Sox haven't won the World Series since 1918. That means... they lost Game 7! So why do people make such a big deal about this homer?" Well, it won one game, not a World Series, but it was still one of sports' greatest epics.

Game 6 of the 1975 World Series has been called "The Greatest Baseball Game Ever Played" by many people. Certainly, it is in the discussion, along with Game 8 in 1912 (Game 2 was tied when called due to darkness), Game 7 in 1924, Game 7 in 1960, and Game 7 in 1991, and also with the 1951 Giant-Dodger Playoff and the 1978 Yanks-Sox Playoff.

In 1981, baseball historian John Thorn published Baseball's 10 Greatest Games. He included this game as one of them. In 2010, the MLB Network listed this game on top of their list of MLB's 20 Greatest Games -- limited in scope, due to the availability of surviving videotape, to 1975 onward. Due to the timing -- 1975 to 1980 -- along with the Bucky Dent Game, it was 1 of 2 games to make both lists.

Dick Stockton, born in Philadelphia but grew up in Queens, then the 32-year-old lead broadcaster on Sox games for WSBK-Channel 39, and previously for Boston Celtics games on WBZ-Channel 4, then an NBC station, was the lead broadcaster for NBC in this Series.

A 22-year-old writer from Quincy named Lesley Visser was part of The Boston Globe's coverage. Stockton and Visser would both go on to become key cogs in CBS Sports' programming. Supposedly, they met on this night. Other sources say they met at another Boston-based event in 1982. Either way, they married in 1983, but got divorced in 2010, and each has since married someone else.

And, of course, this game has also been cited in the 1997 film Good Will Hunting, discussed by the characters played by Robin Williams and Matt Damon.

Of course, as Shaughnessy pointed out in his book, in the 1986 World Series, Game 6 would prove disastrous for the Red Sox. So now, if you're in New England, or in the presence of a Red Sox fan anywhere else, and you say the words, "Game Six," they have to ask, "Which one?"

UPDATE: The Reds have a team Hall of Fame. Elected from this 1975 "Big Red Machine" have been 1st baseman Tony Pérez, 2nd baseman Joe Morgan, shortstop Dave Concepción, 3rd baseman Pete Rose, left fielder George Foster, center fielder César Gerónimo, right fielder Ken Griffey Sr., catcher Johnny Bench; pitchers Gary Nolan, Don Gullett, Pedro Borbón, Jack Billingham, Fred Norman and Clay Carroll; manager George "Sparky" Anderson, general manager Bob Howsam, and broadcasters Joe Nuxhall and Marty Brennaman.

The Red Sox also have a team Hall of Fame. From their 1975 Pennant winners, they have inducted 1st baseman Yastrzemski, 3rd baseman Petrocelli, catcher Carlton Fisk, shortstop Rick Burleson, left fielder Jim Rice, center fielder Fred Lynn, right fielder Dwight Evans, pitchers Luis Tiant and Bill Lee, team owner Tom Yawkey, general manager Dick O'Connell, scout George Digby, executives Edward Kenney and Dick Bresciani, groundskeeper Joe Mooney, guest relations director Al Green, public address announcer Sherm Feller, broadcasters Ken Coleman and Ned Martin, and longtime vendor Arthur D'Angelo. 1st baseman George Scott had been traded away, but would be brought back.

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October 21, 1975 was a Tuesday. Tom Waits releases his album Nighthawks at the Diner, including the song “Eggs and Sausage.” In that song, he sings, "Baby, you gotta understand, I'm in a graveyard charade, a spaceship masquerade." Good metaphors for the 1970s.

It was midweek for football, and the World Football League folded. I have a separate entry for that event.

The NBA and the ABA wouldn't start their seasons for another 2 days. But 3 games were played in the NHL:

* The New York Islanders and the Vancouver Canucks played to a tie, 5-5 at the Nassau Coliseum.

* The Montreal Canadiens beat the Pittsburgh Penguins, 7-1 at the Civic Arena in Pittsburgh.

* And the St. Louis Blues beat the Los Angeles Kings, 6-1 at the St. Louis Arena. From 1977 to 1983, the Arena was named the Checkerdome, because the Blues were owned by St. Louis-based Ralston Purina, whose logo was (and is) a "checkerboard square."

In the World Hockey Association that night:

* The Quebec Nordiques beat the New England Whalers, 6-1 at the Colisee de Quebec.

* The Minnesota Fighting Saints beat the Indianapolis Racers, 2-1 at the Market Square Arena in Indianapolis.

* And the Winnipeg Jets beat the Cincinnati Stingers, 7-0 at the Winnipeg Arena. 

Friday, October 14, 2022

October 14, 1975: The Ed Armbrister Game

October 14, 1975: In a game featuring 6 home runs‚ 3 by each team‚ Game 3 of the World Series is won by the Cincinnati Reds over the Boston Red Sox, 6-5 in the 10th inning at Riverfront Stadium in Cincinnati.

The inning is marked by a controversial play involving Cincinnati's Ed Armbrister and Boston's Carlton Fisk: Armbrister, a backup outfielder, lays down a sacrifice bunt, and seemingly hesitates breaking out of the batter's box; Fisk's subsequent throwing error leads to the Reds' winning run. The Sox scream for an interference call from umpire Larry Barnett‚ but to no avail.
Left to right: Fisk, Barnett, Red Sox manager Darrell Johnson,
Red Sox shortstop Rico Petrocelli

Tony Kubek, former Yankee shortstop and now one of the NBC broadcasters, says on the air that Barnett blew the call. Barnett ends up getting thousands of angry letters, some of them death threats, nearly all of them from the New England States.

The Red Sox won Game 4. The Big Red Machine won Game 5. Game 6 was an all-time classic, won by the Red Sox on Fisk's walkoff home run in the 12th inning. The Reds won Game 7, 4-3, on a 9th inning single by Joe Morgan. The Reds won their 1st World Championship in 35 years. Red Sox fans, who'd waited 57 years, would have to wait 29 years more.

The Armbrister play happened 47 years ago, but Red Sox fans still complain about it. It was even mentioned in the U.S. version of the movie Fever Pitch. Finally having won 4 World Series has done nothing to diminish Sox fans' feelings about it. They still think that, if interference had been called on Armbrister, they would have won the Series.

Barnett made the right call: There was no interference. Watch Armbrister's eyes: He's surprised that the ball went practically straight up into the air, and that made him hesitate. Intentional interference simply cannot be seriously called on that play.

The game was still tied. Curse of the Bambino or no, the game was still tied when it happened. Considering everything that went wrong with the team from 1918 to 2003, if they had gotten the call their way, they still could have lost the game later, possibly in another shocking way.

And the Red Sox blew Game 2, Game 5 and Game 7. They led Game 2, 2-1 going into the 9th inning, but Johnny Bench led off with a double. Johnson pulled Bill Lee, and replaced him with Dick Drago. Tony Pérez moved Bench to 3rd on a groundout, and George Foster popped up. But Dave Concepción singled up the middle to tie the game, and Ken Griffey Sr. doubled Concepción home.

Had the Red Sox held that lead, and nothing else changed, there never would have been a Game 7. And Fisk's home run to win Game 6 would have won the Series, and made him the greatest sports hero in New England history. And Barnett's alleged bad call wouldn't have mattered. But they didn't hold that lead.

In Game 5, they led 1-0 going into the bottom of the 4th, but gave up a run in the 4th, a run in the 5th, 3 runs in the 6, and a run in the 8th. Pérez hit 2 home runs. The Sox pulled a run back in the 9th, but lost the game, 6-2. Again: Had the Red Sox held that lead, and nothing else changed, there never would have been a Game 7. And Barnett's alleged bad call wouldn't have mattered. But they didn't hold that lead.

And in that Game 7, they took a 3-0 lead in the bottom of the 3rd, and held it into the top of the 6th. Then Lee decided to get cute. He started throwing his blooper pitch. He threw one to Pérez,
who deposited it onto the Massachusetts Turnpike, making it 3-2. The Reds tied the game in the 7th when Griffey walked, stole 2nd, and was singled home by Pete Rose.

In the 9th, Griffey led off with another walk. Cesar Gerónimo bunted him to 2nd. A Dan Driessen groundout got him to 3rd. Rose was walked intentionally to set up the force play, but Morgan singled off Jim Burton, and the Red Sox couldn't answer in the bottom of the 9th. Cincinnati 4, Boston 3, for the game, and for the World Series. Had they just prevented the Reds from scoring for 9 more outs, the Barnett non-call would have been a footnote in baseball history, a minor annoyance on the magical way to a title. 

Umpire Larry Barnett was not the reason that the Boston Red Sox lost the 1975 World Series. They had many chances to win it, but they couldn't finish it off. This seems never to have occurred to Red Sox fans. But then, it's been a long time since I gave up on expecting Red Sox fans to be rational. They still blame Don Zimmer for 1978, and they still believe that David Ortiz didn't cheat.

Ed Armbrister would also help the Reds win the World Series in 1976, and played 1 more season in the major leagues. He died in 2021, at 72 years old, in his native Bahamas, where he ran a youth baseball league, and was a consultant to the national Ministry of Sports.
Armbrister flanked by league employees 

Larry Barnett continued as an MLB umpire until 1999, and was the home plate umpire for the Jeffrey Maier Game in the 1996 American League Championship Series, although he had nothing to do with the game's controversial call by Rich Garcia. 

*

October 14, 1975 was a Tuesday. Football was in midweek. The NBA season didn't start for another 9 days. The ABA season started the day after that. There were 3 games in the NHL:

* The New York Islanders beat the Montreal Canadiens, 5-3 at the Nassau Coliseum.

* The St. Louis Blues beat the cross-State Kansas City Scouts, 5-1 at the St. Louis Arena.

* And the Vancouver Canucks beat the Washington Capitals, 7-2 at the Pacific Coliseum in Vancouver.

And there were 3 games in the WHA:

* The Quebec Nordiques beat the Edmonton Oilers, 8-5 at the Colisée de Québec.

* The Toronto Toros beat the Houston Aeros, 6-3 at Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto.

* And the Calgary Cowboys beat the Indianapolis Racers, 5-3 at the Stampede Corral in Calgary. 

Tuesday, October 11, 2022

October 11, 1975: "Saturday Night Live" Premieres

Back row, left to right: Laraine Newman, John Belushi,
Jane Curtin, Chevy Chase and Dan Aykroyd.
Bottom row, left to right: Garrett Morris and Gilda Radner.

October 11, 1975: Saturday Night premieres on NBC, taping from the network's studios at 30 Rockefeller Plaza in Midtown Manhattan. After this 1st season, it was renamed Saturday Night Live. The original cast, known as "the Not Ready for Prime Time Players," includes John Belushi, Dan Aykroyd, Gilda Radner, Chevy Chase, Jane Curtin, Laraine Newman and Garrett Morris -- but not, as is commonly believed, Bill Murray, who replaced Chase after the 1st season.

The 1st guest host is George Carlin, who begins his monologue with a whacked-out version of the Lord's Prayer, and goes on to do "Baseball and Football," a routine he will expand on a few times. (This version is from 1990, from the State Theatre in New Brunswick, New Jersey.)

Not long before Carlin died, someone took a poll to determine the greatest standup comedians of all time. Carlin came in 2nd. Coming in 1st was Richard Pryor, who, like Carlin, was at the peak of his powers in the mid-Seventies.
A month into SNL's run, Pryor was asked to host the show. But, nervous that he would issue some four-letter words -- they didn't seem as nervous about such language coming from Carlin, creator of the 1972 bit "Seven Words You Can Never Use On Television," none of which he used when he hosted -- they used a 7-second delay, in case they had to bleep anything out. They did have to. Ever since, even SNL hasn't been totally live.
In addition to the preceding, SNL would make stars of Eddie Murphy, Joe Piscopo, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Christopher Guest, Harry Shearer, Dana Carvey, Phil Hartman, Dennis Miller, Kevin Nealon, Norm McDonald, Mike Myers, Chris Farley, Rob Schneider, Sarah Silverman, Will Ferrell, Jimmy Fallon, Tina Fey, Keenan Thompson, and Kate McKinnon.
Billy Crystal was already a star when he signed on for the 1984-85 season. The next season would be the one and only on the show for Robert Downey Jr., whose true fame was yet to come.
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October 11, 1975 was, clearly, a Saturday. Earlier that day, Hillary Rodham and Bill Clinton were married in their living room in Fayetteville, Arkansas. Despite all odds -- including "self-inflicted wounds," and rooting for rival teams, as Hillary grew up in the Chicago suburbs as a Cubs fan, Bill in Arkansas as a St. Louis Cardinals fan -- they are still together, dividing their time between Washington, D.C. and Westchester County, New York, and now have 3 grandchildren.

Game 1 of the World Series was played at Fenway Park in Boston, with the Boston Red Sox hosting the Cincinnati Reds. Luis Tiant shut down the Big Red Machine, and drove in the 1st run, despite the designated hitter rule preventing him from coming to bat all season long, as the Red Sox won, 6-0. The Sox scored all their runs in the 7th inning. One of the most talked-about World Series was underway with a surprising flourish.

There was college football on this day, including the following games:

* Number 1 Ohio State beat Iowa, 49-0 at Ohio Stadium in Columbus. The Buckeyes won the Big Ten title, but lost the National Championship when they lost the Rose Bowl to UCLA.

* Number 2 Oklahoma beat Number 5 Texas, 24-17 at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas. The Sooners won the Big Eight title, then beat Michigan in the Orange Bowl, and won the National Championship.

* Number 3 Southern California beat Washington State, 28-10 at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. The Trojans were still Number 3 on November 1, but began a 4-game losing streak that day, losing away to California, home to Stanford on the 8th, away to Washington on the 15th. On the 28th, Thanksgiving Day, USC lost to UCLA at the Coliseum. They did rebound to beat Texas A&M in the Liberty Bowl.

* Number 4 Nebraska beat Kansas, 16-0 at Memorial Stadium in Lincoln. The Cornhuskers lost to Oklahoma on Thanksgiving Weekend, costing them the Big Eight title, a trip to the Orange Bowl, and a shot at the National Championship. Instead, they went to the Fiesta Bowl, where they had to play Arizona State on their home field, and lost.

* Number 6 Texas A&M beat Texas Tech, 38-9 at Jones Stadium in Lubbock. They beat Texas on Thanksgiving, rose to Number 2 in the rankings, looked headed for the Cotton Bowl and a shot at the National Championship, but a loss to Arkansas cost them, and they ended up playing USC in the Liberty Bowl, and losing. In contrast, Arkansas were unranked on October 11, beating Baylor, 41-3 at Baylor Stadium (later Floyd Casey Stadium) in Waco, Texas. They won the Southwest Conference title, earning them the Cotton Bowl berth, and they beat Georgia.

* Number 7 Alabama beat the University of Washington, 52-0 at Denny Stadium (later Bryant-Denny Stadium) in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The Crimson Tide would win the Southeastern Conference title.

* Number 8 Michigan beat in-State rivals, Number 15 Michigan State, 16-6 at Spartan Stadium in East Lansing.

* Number 9 Penn State beat Number 10 West Virginia, 39-0 at Beaver Stadium in State College, Pennsylvania. Penn State went on to be invited to the Sugar Bowl, but lost to Alabama.

* Number 12 Missouri beat Number 14 Oklahoma State, 41-14 at Faurot Field in Columbia, Missouri.

* Number 15 Notre Dame beat North Carolina, 21-14 at Kenan Stadium in Chapel Hill, North Carolina.

* Navy beat Syracuse, 10-6 at Navy-Marine Corps Memorial Stadium in Annapolis, Maryland. But Army lost to Duke, 21-10 at Michie Stadium in West Point, New York.

* Rutgers lost to Lehigh, 34-20 at Taylor Stadium in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. The Scarlet Knights did not lose again for nearly 2 years, until September 2, 1977, when Penn State beat them at the Meadowlands. Also among New Jersey teams, Princeton beat Cornell, 16-8 at Schoellkopf Field in Ithaca, New York.

The NBA season started 12 days later; the ABA season, the day after that. There were 7 games played in the NHL:

* The New York Islanders beat the Los Angeles Kings, 7-0 at the Nassau Coliseum.

* The Montreal Canadiens beat the St. Louis Blues, 7-2 at the Montreal Forum.

* In an "Original Six" matchup, the Toronto Maple Leafs beat the Chicago Black Hawks, 2-1 at Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto.

* The Pittsburgh Penguins beat the Washington Capitals, 7-5 at the Civic Arena in Pittsburgh.

* The California Golden Seals beat the Detroit Red Wings, 5-2 at the Olympia Stadium in Detroit. Making his NHL debut, with the Wings, was Mike Wong, a 20-year-old center from Minneapolis. This was only the 2nd NHL game played by a player of Asian descent, after Chinese-Canadian Larry Kwong played 1 game for the 1948 New York Rangers. Wong would last 4 seasons in the NHL.

* The Philadelphia Flyers beat the Minnesota North Stars, 9-5 at the Metropolitan Sports Center in the Minneapolis suburb of Bloomington, Minnesota.

* The Kansas City Scouts beat the Vancouver Canucks, 4-2 at the Kemper Arena (now the Hy-Vee Arena) in Kansas City.

* And the New York Rangers, the Boston Bruins, the Buffalo Sabres and the Atlanta Flames were not scheduled.

And there were 4 games in the World Hockey Association:

* The Quebec Nordiques beat the Toronto Toros, 7-3 at the Colisée de Québec.

* The Houston Aeros beat the New England Whalers, 5-0 at the Hartford Civic Center (now the PeoplesBank Arena).

* The Cincinnati Stingers beat their arch-rivals, the Cleveland Crusaders, 1-0 at The Coliseum in the Cleveland suburb of Richfield, Ohio.

* And the Phoenix Roadrunners beat the San Diego Mariners, 4-2 at the San Diego Sports Arena (now the Pechanga Arena.)

In New Jersey high school football, East Brunswick, which would later be my Alma Mater, lost 13-14 to Colonia of Woodbridge, at home at Jay Doyle Field.

And in English soccer, Arsenal beat Midlands team Coventry City, 5-0 at Highbury in North London.

December 31, 1999 & January 1, 2000: The Millennium

December 31, 1999:  The Millennium arrives. The people of planet Earth survived. At a terrible cost. But we hadn't destroyed ourselves. ...